The U.S.' top general reflects on the changing face of war, 79 years after D-Day
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U.S Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Mark Milley salutes during a D-Day anniversary ceremony at the American Cemetery in Colleville-sur-Mer, Normandy, France on Tuesday.Thomas Padilla / AP -
Guests, including U.S. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley and U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, watch as a French elite acrobatic flying team soars over Tuesday's ceremony at the Normandy American Cemetery and Memorial.Lou Benoist / AFP via Getty Images
President Biden's top military adviser says the U.S. has resolved that people — not computers — should continue making life-or-death decisions in war.
Responding to widespread concerns about the power of artificial intelligence, Gen. Mark Milley said U.S. policy — unlike that of some "adversarial countries" — is "to ensure that humans remain in the decision-making loop."
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff reflected on the changing nature of warfare in an interview with Morning Edition on the eve of the 79th anniversary of D-Day, when thousands of U.S. and allied forces stormed the beaches of Normandy to begin the liberation of Western Europe from Nazi Germany.
Milley was among the U.S. officials, World War II veterans and other visitors who visited Normandy to mark the anniversary and honor those who served.
It's a significant trip for Milley in part because it's his last: He plans to retire when his tenure ends in September — after more than four decades of service in multiple command and staff positions in eight divisions and Special Forces.
Milley, the son of WWII veterans, says defending the principles of the Constitution has been a driving force throughout his life.
"That was the gift my parents gave to me from World War II," he says. "That's the gift of all these veterans on these beaches that we're meeting around here. And I think that's my one obligation to pass that on to the next generation and beyond."
On Friday, France's president awarded Milley the country's highest medal of honor for his more than 40-year military career "spent in defense of democracy," including his role coordinating support for Ukraine.
Tuesday's anniversary comes at a pivotal moment for Ukraine, which appears to be launching its long-awaited counteroffensive against Russia (there is speculation that it has started in recent days, though Kyiv says there will be no formal announcement). The U.S. is among the allies that have continued to arm Ukraine with military aid, including advanced fighter jets, for this purpose.
Milley says there are fundamental lessons of warfare that apply in this latest European battlefield. At the same time, he adds, new technology has brought about a major change in the character of war for the first time in decades, with implications for the U.S.
"We've got to make sure we modernize our military so that we remain dominant," he says. "And by doing that [we] will deter any sort of potential aggression by any future great power that might threaten the United States and our interests."
Milley spoke to Morning Edition's Steve Inskeep about lessons from the past — from an ancient Greek historian to his own family's sacrifices — and possible threats of the future.
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
Interview highlights
On the fundamentals of warfare that still apply today
If you look back at the ancients, you look at [ancient Greek military historian] Thucydides for example, and he tells us that the cause of war is primarily fear, interest and pride. I think all three of those are clearly at play here in many, many ways with respect to Russia. Their pride was hurt significantly with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the movement of the NATO boundary from the inner-German border between East [and] West Germany and and then moving that NATO boundary further to the east. ... There's fear on both sides there, with Ukraine afraid of Russian and Russia's afraid of encroachment by NATO and being surrounded and their fear of threat to mother Russia. So all of those [are] still in play as there's a lot of lessons coming from the ancients.
On the technological advancements changing the face of war
The character of war fundamentally changes only once in a while ... and the last big one was between World War I and World War II with the introduction of mechanization, the airplane, the radio. But today we're undergoing a fundamental change in the character of war. What you see playing out in Ukraine, you're seeing snippets of that. You see urbanization of battle, you see the widespread use of precision munitions, you see the widespread use of electronic warfare, you see the widespread use of unmanned aerial vehicles, offset long-range precision fires, you see joint operations, you see all of that in small form somewhat in Ukraine. ... [The U.S. has] got to make sure that we maintain our edge, we maintain our readiness, and we modernize our force in the ways that are necessary for for the future operating environment, which is going to accentuate long-range precision fires, artificial intelligence, robotics, all of those sorts of things are going to be at play in the future.
On what artificial intelligence could mean for the battlefield
There's little doubt in my mind that artificial intelligence is going to play a fundamental and big role in future operations. ... Theoretically, it allows you to see the enemy and see yourself and process all the incredible amounts of information at a faster rate of speed than your adversary. And if you add quantum computing and artificial intelligence together, and then if you combine them with robotics, machines, then you get a degree of power and synergy that could change warfare in ways that we've absolutely never seen before. There's a lot of ethical issues here. There's a lot of legal issues. There's a lot of policy issues that will have to be resolved.
Whatever country it is that optimizes these capabilities ... the best for military operations is going to have a decisive advantage at the beginning of the next conflict. And I want that country to be the United States.
On how the U.S. approach to AI differs from other countries'
The nature of war is built upon the assumption that human beings are driving decision-making in the conduct of war ... The United States' policy right now, actually, with respect to artificial intelligence and its application to military operations, is to ensure that humans remain in the decision-making loop. That is not the policy necessarily of adversarial countries that are also developing artificial intelligence. ...
... As we develop these systems over time, we've got to really pay close attention to how they are developed. Another key thing to recall, too, is we've had various arms control measures in the past because of the potential power of some of these systems. There are potential opportunities here for international regimes that could put limits and mitigate the use of some of this stuff in terms of military operation, because these things are extremely powerful technologies and we have yet to realize how powerful they are. And we're just at the beginning of this. So a lot of thought, a lot of very considered analytical work is going to have to be done for all the countries of the world to come to grips with these capabilities.
The broadcast interview was produced by Nina Kravinsky and Barry Gordemer, and edited by Mohamad ElBardicy.
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Transcript
STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
On this day in 1944, U.S. and other allied troops landed on the beaches of Normandy in France. They joined the effort to retake Western Europe from Hitler's Germany. This week, General Mark Milley is in Normandy for events to mark the anniversary.
Your dad served in World War II, didn't he?
MARK MILLEY: He did. My dad was a Navy corpsman. He did the assault landings at Kwajalein Atoll, Saipan, Tinian and Iwo Jima. My mother was also serving in the Navy Medical Corps. She was in a hospital in Seattle, took care of the wounded coming back. And my dad's brother, my uncle, was here at Normandy.
INSKEEP: This is not General Milley's first visit to the D-Day beaches. It is his last as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military adviser to the president. Milley leaves office this fall. And as he visited historic sites, we got him talking about history and how it has informed his work. World War II ended with a U.S.-led international order that has endured for close to 80 years.
MILLEY: And the 80th year piece of this thing is something that's stuck in my mind, you know, for a long time now. And you look at the international scene, and it's under intense stress between what Russia's done in Ukraine and the whole situation in the Pacific with rising China and the stress that that's causing on its neighbors. Takes a lot of work by a lot of people to try to maintain that order. If that order goes away, then the world will be a much, much more dangerous place.
INSKEEP: He says past international orders have collapsed. In our talk, General Milley ranged as far back as the ancient Greek military historian Thucydides. He also talked of the present, the war in Ukraine, where the U.S. has led an alliance that has been gradually increasing military aid against Russia.
General, you were quoted the other day saying that the advanced tanks and advanced warplanes that the United States is now willing to send Ukraine will not be on the battlefield in time for Ukraine's spring offensive, which follows a pattern. The United States has added bits of aid step-by-step. European allies have added bits of assistance step-by-step, which is frustrating to Ukrainians and some other people. Does history tell you something about alliance building and some of the restrictions that imposes?
MILLEY: Well, I think sure, history tells you that. So I think it's key, Steve, to make sure that we provide the necessary aid for what is required on the battlefield at the time. So when Russia invaded, the key requirement, really, was for two sets of assistance. One was anti-tank munitions and artillery. The other key thing, the military problem to be solved, was the air. Control of the air and make sure that Russia could not establish either air superiority or supremacy. And the cheapest, most effective way to do that was from the ground.
INSKEEP: I'm interested in this, General, because from the outside, we get the impression that some of the gradual ramping up of assistance has to do with diplomacy and alliances and even domestic politics. You don't want to go farther than your allies are willing to go. But you're arguing here, I think, that it's about practicality and cost and what works at any given time.
MILLEY: Well, I think that any decision is going to be the result of multiple factors. It's not a single factor. You've also got to look at the alliance to make sure you keep the alliance together all moving forward, shoulder to shoulder. And then you got to factor in the practical military things like the cost and what the military problem is, you know, control of the air, that sort of thing. All of those factors go into the decision.
INSKEEP: Are there some ancient fundamentals of warfare that still apply even as the technology changes so much?
MILLEY: Well, sure. I think, you know, if you look back at the ancients, you look at Thucydides, for example, and he tells us that the cause of war is primarily fear, interest and pride. I think all three of those are clearly at play here in many, many ways with respect to Russia. Their pride was hurt significantly with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the movement of the NATO boundary from the inter-German border between East and West Germany and then moving that NATO boundary further to the east. In terms of interest, if you look at Thucydides, you know, he can tell us all of that. But if you come closer in time, you go to Clausewitz, for example, from the Napoleonic Wars era. He talks about the nature of war and the character of war. So the nature of war is clearly applying friction, fear, uncertainty, the dynamic between the people, the government, the army. So that's all at play - but also the character of war. So the character of war fundamentally changes only once in a while. The last big one, you know, is between World War I and World War II with the introduction of mechanization, the airplane, the radio.
But today, we're undergoing a fundamental change in the character of war. What you see playing out in Ukraine - you're seeing snippets of that. You see the widespread use of precision munitions. You see the widespread use of electronic warfare. And we've got to make sure that we maintain our edge, we maintain our readiness for the future operating environment, which is going to accentuate long-range precision fires, artificial intelligence, robotics. We've got to make sure we modernize our military. And by doing that, we'll deter any sort of potential aggression by any future great power that might threaten the United States and our interests.
INSKEEP: I'm wondering if artificial intelligence, which you mentioned, could bring an even more fundamental change. A battlefield on which people are not only using computers and weaponry, but the computers might be choosing when to open fire and on what. Could that change the entire nature of warfare?
MILLEY: Well, you know, the nature of war is built upon the assumption that human beings are driving decision-making in the conduct of war. So it is possible, in a theoretical sense, that the United States policy right now, actually, with respect to artificial intelligence and its application to military operations is to ensure that humans remain in the decision-making loop. That is not the policy, necessarily, of adversarial countries that are also developing artificial intelligence. So your point is well taken.
And there's little doubt in my mind that artificial intelligence is going to play a fundamental and big role in future operations. And what does it allow you to do? Theoretically, it allows you to see the enemy and see yourself and process all the incredible amounts of information at a faster rate of speed than your adversary. And then if you combine them with robotics - machines - then you get a degree of power and synergy that could change warfare in ways that, you know, we've absolutely never seen before.
INSKEEP: General Milley, thanks for your time. It's always a pleasure.
MILLEY: Thanks, Steve. I appreciate it.
INSKEEP: General Mark Milley is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
(SOUNDBITE OF SLOWLY ROLLING CAMERA'S "NATURE'S RATIO") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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