Pressed on his election lies, former President Trump cuts NPR interview short

Pressed on his election lies, former President Trump cuts NPR interview short

5:21pm Jan 12, 2022
Former President Donald Trump at a rally in Phoenix, Ariz., on July 24, 2021.
Former President Donald Trump at a rally in Phoenix, Ariz., on July 24, 2021.
Brandon Bell / Getty Images
  • Former President Donald Trump at a rally in Phoenix, Ariz., on July 24, 2021.

    Former President Donald Trump at a rally in Phoenix, Ariz., on July 24, 2021.

    Brandon Bell / Getty Images

  • Trump has blasted Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, all because the Kentucky Republican has crossed the former president.

    Trump has blasted Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, all because the Kentucky Republican has crossed the former president.

    Chip Somodevilla / Getty Images

  • Former U.S. Attorney Bill McSwain, a Republican running for Pennsylvania governor, has appealed for Trump's support.

    Former U.S. Attorney Bill McSwain, a Republican running for Pennsylvania governor, has appealed for Trump's support.

    Matt Rourke / AP

Some Republican leaders are trying to move on from former President Donald Trump's failed attempt to overturn the 2020 election that he lost.

"While there were some irregularities, there were none of the irregularities which would have risen to the point where they would have changed the vote outcome in a single state," Sen. Mike Rounds, R-S.D., said Sunday on ABC's This Week. "The election was fair, as fair as we have seen. We simply did not win the election, as Republicans, for the presidency. And if we simply look back and tell our people don't vote because there's cheating going on, then we're going to put ourselves in a huge disadvantage."

But Trump — who has endorsed dozens of candidates for the 2022 midterm elections and still holds by far the widest influence within the GOP — is trying hard not to let them move on.

"No, I think it's an advantage, because otherwise they're going to do it again in '22 and '24, and Rounds is wrong on that. Totally wrong," Trump told NPR in an interview Tuesday, referring to his false and debunked claims that the 2020 election was stolen.

The interview was six years in the making. Trump and his team have repeatedly declined interviews with NPR until Tuesday, when he called in from his home in Florida. It was scheduled for 15 minutes, but lasted just over nine.

After being pressed about his repeated lies about the 2020 presidential election, Trump abruptly ended the interview.

Trump's mixed messages on getting vaccinated

The interview began with the pandemic and vaccinations.

Trump, whose administration oversaw the development of the COVID-19 vaccines, recommended that people get vaccinated but said he's firmly against mandating that they do so.

"[T]he mandate is really hurting our country," Trump claimed, adding, "A lot of Americans aren't standing for it, and it's hurting our country."

He continued, "The vaccines, I recommend taking them, but I think that has to be an individual choice. I mean, it's got to be individual, but I recommend taking them."

The opposition to mandates is popular with Republicans, and the Supreme Court is currently weighing the Biden administration's vaccine-or-test mandate for large employers. But his comments come during the record omicron surge, as the unvaccinated are far more likely to be hospitalized or die from the disease, and as Republicans are far more likely to be unvaccinated.

Epidemiologists and health experts warn that if more people don't get vaccinated and the virus continues to morph, it could prolong the pandemic — and delay any sense of getting back to normal.

The former president said he wants to see therapeutics, used to treat the virus after someone is infected, produced and distributed more widely.

Trump's firm grip on the Republican Party, but tenuous grasp on reality

Trump is not just any former president.

Even many members of his own party have blamed him for inciting the deadly Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol, but since then Trump has only tightened his grip on the GOP.

He remains one of the most popular figures in the Republican Party and is considered the front-runner for the 2024 presidential nomination, if he decides to run again.

When he ran in 2016, Trump was seen as having a shoestring campaign, fighting an uphill battle with few allies among Republican elected leaders.

Today, it's a different story. Trump's political organization has become a juggernaut. Not only are most Republican elected leaders falling in line, but he has also installed allies controlling many levers of political power across the country. In state after state, Trump allies are running local Republican parties, serving as state representatives and in charge of political action committees.

It's a political army ready to be mobilized at his beck and call. What he says — what his message is to them — matters because they follow.

To secure his power, he will do whatever he can to cast aside those who don't show fealty. That includes threats, bullying and intimidation, like badgering and name-calling.

Referring to South Dakota's Rounds in a statement after he appeared on ABC, for example, Trump said Rounds "just went woke," called him a "jerk," "weak," "ineffective" and questioned whether he was "crazy or just stupid."

He also called him a RINO, an acronym for an insult some conservatives reserve for more moderate Republicans they disagree with — Republicans in name only.

In the interview with NPR, he partially blamed Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell for Rounds and other senators feeling as though they can speak out and say — correctly — that Trump lost the election.

"Because Mitch McConnell is a loser," Trump said.

Trump has called McConnell worse — and all because the Kentucky Republican has crossed Trump, blaming him for the insurrection on Jan. 6 and saying President Biden won, even if McConnell doesn't do so forcefully every day.

It's par for the course for Trump, who has demanded unflinching loyalty — and who chafes at truths he disagrees with, especially about him losing.

Won't accept losing an election he lost

Many Republicans prefer to focus on Biden as this year's congressional elections approach. Trump is pressing candidates in a different direction.

Josh Mandel, a pro-Trump Republican from Ohio, launched his campaign for U.S. Senate just weeks after Trump supporters attacked the U.S. Capitol last year.

"I think over time we're gonna see studies come out that [show] evidence of widespread fraud," Mandel, a former state treasurer who is angling for Trump's endorsement, told WKYC-TV.

In the year since Mandel made that prediction, the opposite has happened.

Even more evidence shows a free and fair election.

In one disputed state, Arizona, Trump allies held a widely criticized review of millions of ballots, but even Doug Logan, who led Cyber Ninjas, the firm that ran the review, couldn't find much.

"The ballots that were provided to us to count in the Coliseum very accurately correlate with the official canvass numbers," Logan said.

As he does with any information or person he doesn't like or disagrees with, Trump dismissed the findings in the NPR interview.

"Lying or delusional"

In the interview, Trump repeated a number of false claims about voting systems in the U.S., including that the discredited GOP-led ballot review in Arizona showed evidence of malfeasance — despite the fact that it also reaffirmed Biden's victory.

Republican officials in Maricopa County, however, debunked the characterizations of Trump and his allies in a 93-page rebuttal issued last week.

"The people who have spent the last year proclaiming our free and fair elections are rigged are lying or delusional," said Bill Gates, the GOP chair of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors.

Asked why even Republicans in the state accepted the findings, Trump reverted to an old attack.

"Because they're RINOs," he said, "and frankly, a lot of people are questioning that."

Tammy Patrick, a former Maricopa County election official and now an elections expert at Democracy Fund, was presented by NPR with a number of Trump's claims about voting and noted that in the 14 months since the election, no proof of any of his claims has come to light.

"It hasn't been presented in any of the courts. It hasn't been surfaced in any official election audits, not by the Department of Justice, not by the FBI," Patrick said. "Allegations of fraud hinge upon being able to produce actual instances of fraud — not merely thoughts, feelings or beliefs about it."

To Republicans who know how elections work, the election has always been obvious.

"The facts show that it was President Biden who won fair and square," said Trey Grayson, who used to run elections as the Republican secretary of state in Kentucky. "It wasn't rigged."

He's thinking about those Republican T-shirts that said, "F*** your feelings."

"And here we are looking at the 2020 election," Grayson said, "and we are the ones who are basing it on feelings, not on facts, not on the law."

The Pennsylvania example

Most Republican voters now say they feel the election was stolen, according to surveys. That gives Trump leverage with Republican candidates who want to win primaries this year.

In Pennsylvania, numerous Republicans are running for governor and senator. They've made lots of moves to prove their fealty to the former president. One candidate for governor is Bill McSwain, who happened to be a U.S. attorney during the 2020 election.

"Bill McSwain left office without announcing any investigations or outcome of investigations for the 2020 election in the Eastern District of Pennsylvania," said Chris Brennan of the Philadelphia Inquirer, who has covered his story.

But then McSwain prepared to run for office. Last summer, he produced a letter for Trump, appealing for his support — and implying that he was blocked somehow from investigating unspecified claims of fraud.

"But it doesn't actually say that," Brennan said. "So even he, when you carefully read it, does not claim that he was blocked from investigating fraud."

Trump nonetheless made the letter public and gave his own interpretation at multiple rallies.

"We have a U.S. attorney in Philadelphia that says he wasn't allowed to go and check," Trump said at a rally in Florida.

Grayson has watched similar stories unfold in multiple states.

"I think he's been really active in moving 2022 candidates toward his point of view," Grayson said. "The way I look at it is, I can't imagine that the party on its own would be pushing this narrative if he weren't pushing it."

Repeatedly in the interview, Trump presses his party to adhere to his point of view and false claims, and he adapts his arguments to account for more and more proof that he lost. That's a typical strategy among purveyors of disinformation and misinformation.

Trump did correctly note in the interview that he received more votes than any sitting president ever. But his broader point that that is somehow evidence that he won in 2020 is nonsensical, said Patrick, seeing as the election saw record turnout.

"Each election compares those candidates facing off in that election — it doesn't matter how the numbers compare to the last election," Patrick said. "It doesn't matter how many points a team scored the last game or how many times Alabama has won the national championship. What matters is who has the most points or votes at the end of the game."

For the record, the University of Georgia won the college football national championship Monday, defeating Alabama, 33-18. And Biden got 7 million more votes than Trump in the popular vote in 2020 and got 306 electoral votes to Trump's 232.

Repeated losses in the independent judiciary

Trump doesn't have a case of widespread fraud.

He and his lawyers tried to prove that he did — and they failed. Many judges, including some appointed by him, ruled that way in dozens of cases.

Here's a section of the interview on this:

NPR'S STEVE INSKEEP: Let me read you some short quotes. The first is by one of the judges, one of the 10 judges you appointed, who ruled on this. And there were many judges, but 10 who you appointed. Brett Ludwig, U.S. District Court in Wisconsin, who was nominated by you in 2020. He's on the bench and he says, quote, "This court allowed the plaintiff the chance to make his case, and he has lost on the merits."

Another quote, Kory Langhofer, your own campaign attorney in Arizona, Nov. 12, 2020, quote, "We are not alleging fraud in this lawsuit. We are not alleging anyone stealing the election." And also Rudy Giuliani, your lawyer, Nov. 18, 2020, in Pennsylvania, quote, "This is not a fraud case." Your own lawyers had no evidence of fraud. They said in court they had no evidence of fraud. And the judges ruled against you every time on the merits.

TRUMP: It was too early to ask for fraud and to talk about fraud. Rudy said that, because of the fact it was very early with the — because that was obviously at a very, very — that was a long time ago. The things that have found out have more than bore out what people thought and what people felt and what people found.

When you look at Langhofer, I disagree with him as an attorney. I did not think he was a good attorney to hire. I don't know what his game is, but I will just say this: You look at the findings. You look at the number of votes. Go into Detroit and just ask yourself, is it true that there are more votes than there are voters? Look at Pennsylvania. Look at Philadelphia. Is it true that there were far more votes than there were voters?

INSKEEP: It is not true that there were far more votes than voters. There was an early count. I've noticed you've talked about this in rallies and you've said, reportedly, this is true. I think even you know that that was an early report that was corrected later.

TRUMP: Well, you take a look at it. You take a look at Detroit. In fact, they even had a hard time getting people to sign off on it because it was so out of balance. They called it out of balance. So you take a look at it. You know the real truth, Steve, and this election was a rigged election.

When pressed, it was excuse after excuse — it was "too early" to claim fraud, his attorney was no good, things just seem suspicious.

But it all comes back to the same place: He has no evidence of widespread fraud that caused him to lose the election.

The tone of the interview changed. Trump then hurried off the phone as he was starting to be asked about the attack on the Capitol, inspired by election lies.

A judge is considering whether Trump can be held liable for his actions in court.

If he can be, then Trump or his lawyers would someday have to answer the questions he didn't answer before he cut short his conversation with NPR.

Copyright 2022 NPR. To see more, visit https://www.npr.org.

Transcript

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

More than six years ago, I asked for an interview with a rising presidential candidate named Donald Trump. From time to time over the years since, I renewed that request. But it never quite happened until yesterday, when Trump joined us by phone from Florida.

Mr. President.

DONALD TRUMP: Hello, Steve. How are you?

INSKEEP: I'm doing OK. Thanks for taking the time today. It's great to talk with you.

TRUMP: OK. Absolutely. Absolutely, Steve.

INSKEEP: There's no reason that you would know this. But we first invited you on the program in 2015. So it's great to get you.

TRUMP: Oh, wow. Well, I guess I got lucky by not doing it, right?

INSKEEP: It was a short interview before he hung up. We'll hear much of it in this part of the program. It takes decoding to figure out what's going on. So let's take a few minutes to do that first. Other Republican leaders are trying to drop Trump's failed attempt to overturn the 2020 election. Senator Mike Rounds made that case Sunday on ABC.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

MIKE ROUNDS: There were none of the irregularities which would have risen to the point where they would have changed the vote outcome in a single state.

INSKEEP: Many Republicans prefer to focus on President Biden as this year's congressional elections approach. Trump is pressing candidates in a different direction. One of them is Josh Mandel of Ohio, who launched his campaign for U.S. Senate just weeks after Trump supporters attacked the U.S. Capitol last year.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

JOSH MANDEL: I think, over time, we're going to see studies come out that - evidence, widespread fraud.

INSKEEP: In the year since he made that prediction to WKYC, the opposite has happened. Even more evidence shows a free and fair election. In one disputed state, Arizona, Trump allies held a widely criticized audit of millions of ballots. But even Doug Logan, who ran it, couldn't find much.

DOUG LOGAN: The ballots that were provided to us to count in the coliseum very accurately correlate with the official canvass numbers.

INSKEEP: Keep that quote in mind because it comes up on the phone call we're about to hear with Donald Trump. To Republicans who know how elections work, the 2020 election result has always been obvious.

TREY GRAYSON: The facts show that President Biden won fair and square. It wasn't rigged.

INSKEEP: Trey Grayson used to run elections as the Republican secretary of state of Kentucky. He's thinking about those Republican T-shirts that used to say, F your feelings.

GRAYSON: And here we are, (laughter) looking at the 2020 election, and we are the ones who are basing it on feelings, not on facts, not on the law.

INSKEEP: That feeling among Republican voters gives Trump some power over Republican candidates. Here's one example. In Pennsylvania, numerous Republicans are running for office. And one candidate for governor is Bill McSwain, who happened to be a U.S. attorney during the 2020 election. We talked about him with Chris Brennan of the Philadelphia Inquirer.

CHRIS BRENNAN: Bill McSwain left office without announcing any investigations or outcome of investigations for the 2020 election in the eastern district of Pennsylvania.

INSKEEP: But then Bill McSwain prepared to run for office. Last summer, he produced a letter for Trump, appealing for his support and implying he was blocked somehow from investigating unspecified claims of fraud.

BRENNAN: But it doesn't actually say that.

INSKEEP: So even he, when you carefully read it, does not claim that he was blocked from investigating fraud.

BRENNAN: This is a very lawyerly letter. Yeah.

INSKEEP: Trump nonetheless made the letter public and gave his own interpretation at multiple rallies.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

TRUMP: We have a U.S. attorney in Philadelphia that says he wasn't allowed to go and check.

INSKEEP: Kentucky Republican Trey Grayson has watched similar stories unfold in multiple states.

How active has the former president been in moving 2022 candidates toward his point of view?

GRAYSON: I think he's been really active. The way I look at it is I can't imagine that the party on its own would be pushing this narrative if he weren't pushing it.

INSKEEP: So this, then, was the heart of our talk with former President Trump. You also hear the president adapt his arguments to account for more and more proof that he lost.

TRUMP: Are we going live, Steve? Are we...

INSKEEP: No. We're not going live. This is pre-taped.

TRUMP: OK. Fine.

INSKEEP: Here's the main part of our call yesterday.

South Dakota Senator Mike Rounds, as I think you know, was on ABC over the weekend. He spoke about the 2020 election and also referred to the election campaign that is now starting in 2022. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

ROUNDS: We simply did not win the election as Republicans for the presidency. And if we simply look back and tell our people, don't vote because, you know, there's cheating going on, then we're going to put ourselves in a huge disadvantage.

INSKEEP: Couple of things to ask about there, Mr. President. Let's start with the politics. Is it a disadvantage for Republicans to keep talking about the 2020 election in 2022?

TRUMP: No. I think it's an advantage because otherwise they're going to do it again in '22 and '24. And Rounds is wrong on that, totally wrong. If you look at the numbers - if you look at the findings in Arizona, if you look at what's going on in Georgia and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, by the way, and take a look at Wisconsin - they're finding things that nobody thought possible. This was a corrupt election.

INSKEEP: I just have to point out, Doug Logan - to name one of the states that you just named, Doug Logan, who ran the audit in Arizona that was set up by your allies, didn't find serious problems. This is a quote. "The ballots that were provided to us to count in the coliseum very accurately correlate with the official canvass number." He raised a bunch of administrative issues but didn't find a problem that would have changed the result at all.

TRUMP: The ballots may correspond. But look at the ballots themselves. What you really have to do in that report is look at the findings. And the findings are devastating for Arizona. They're devastating like nobody's seen before...

INSKEEP: Why did your...

TRUMP: And other states are just as bad.

INSKEEP: Why did Republican officials in Arizona accept the results then?

TRUMP: Because they're rhinos. And frankly, a lot of people are questioning that. Why would they? They fought very hard, the Maricopa County people. And people don't understand it because all you have to do is look at the findings. And just so you know, some of those people went before Congress a short while ago. And they were grilled by Congressman Biggs. You ought to take a look at their testimony.

INSKEEP: Trump was referring to a House hearing into the Arizona audit, where a lawmaker claimed not to know who won.

Let me read you some short quotes. The first is by one of the judges, one of the 10 judges you appointed, who ruled on this. And there were many judges but 10 who you appointed. Brett Ludwig, U.S. District Court in Wisconsin, who was nominated by you in 2020, he's on the bench. And he says, quote, "this court allowed the plaintiff the chance to make his case. And he has lost on the merits." Another quote - Kory Langhofer, your own campaign attorney in Arizona, November 12, 2020, quote, "we are not alleging fraud in this lawsuit. We are not alleging anyone stealing the election." And also, Rudy Giuliani, your lawyer, November 18, 2020, in Pennsylvania, quote, "this is not a fraud case." Your own lawyers had no evidence of fraud. They said in court they had no evidence of fraud. And the judges ruled against you every time on the merits.

TRUMP: It was too early to ask for fraud and to talk about fraud. Rudy said that because of the fact it was very early with the - because that was obviously at a very, very - that was a long time ago. The things that have found out have more than bore out what people thought and what people felt and what people found. When you look at Langhofer, I disagree with him as an attorney. I did not think he was a good attorney to hire. I don't know what his game is. But I will just say this, you look at the findings, you look at the number of votes. Go into Detroit and just ask yourself, is it true that there are more votes than there are voters? Look at Pennsylvania. Look at Philadelphia. Is it true that there were far more votes than there were voters...

INSKEEP: It is not true that there were far...

TRUMP: ...Gee, that's a pretty tough thing to - that's a pretty tough problem.

INSKEEP: It is not true that there were far more votes than voters. There was an early count. I've noticed you've talked about this in rallies. And you've said, reportedly, this is true. I think even you know that that was an early report that was corrected later.

TRUMP: Well, you take a look at it. You know the real truth, Steve. And this election was a rigged election.

INSKEEP: As our conversation went on, the former president attacked more and more Republicans.

TRUMP: Because Mitch McConnell is a loser. And frankly, Mitch McConnell, if he were on the other side, and if Schumer were put in his position...

INSKEEP: And the tone changed. We should tell you at this point that the former president had scheduled a 15-minute call. We made it nine minutes and 21 seconds. This is the end.

TRUMP: No sitting president has ever gotten the number of votes that I got.

INSKEEP: A lot of...

TRUMP: No sitting president - nobody believes - you think Biden got 80 million votes?

INSKEEP: No. It's...

TRUMP: How come when he went to speak in different locations, nobody came to watch? But all of a sudden, he got 80 million votes? Nobody believes that, Steve. Nobody believes that.

INSKEEP: If you'll forgive me, maybe because the election was about you. If I can just move on to ask, are you telling Republicans in 2022 that they must press your case on the past election in order to get your endorsement? Is that an absolute?

TRUMP: They're going to do whatever they want to do. Whatever they have to do, they're going to do. But the ones that are smart, the ones that know you take a look at - again, you take a look at how Kari Lake is doing running for governor. She's very big on this issue. She's leading by a lot. People have no idea how big this issue is. And they don't want it to happen again. It shouldn't be allowed to happen. And they don't want it to happen again.

INSKEEP: I want to...

TRUMP: And the only way it's not going to happen again is you have to solve the problem of the presidential rigged election of 2020...

INSKEEP: Mr. President, if I...

TRUMP: ...So Steve, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

INSKEEP: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I have one more question. I want to ask about a court hearing yesterday on January 6. Judge Amit Mehta - he's gone. OK.

That's how the phone call ended with former President Donald Trump. The question we started to ask was about the attack on the Capitol inspired by election lies. A judge is considering whether Trump can be held liable for his actions in court. If he can be, then Trump or his lawyers would someday have to answer the questions he did not answer in our shortened conversation. Now, NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson was listening along with us. Mara, hi there.

MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Hi there, Steve.

INSKEEP: So we've heard the former president is still invested in the election that he lost. Is his party still invested in it?

LIASSON: Well, certainly, the base of his party is invested. When you have 77% of Republicans believing the lie that Donald Trump was the true winner of the 2020 election, that's a big chunk of the party. And its tremendous power. Kind of the ultimate power is to get millions of people to believe in a lie. So he's got a lot of sway over them. But there is a debate inside the Republican Party. You heard Mike Rounds come out and state flatly, Trump didn't win the election. Asa Hutchinson, the Republican governor of Arkansas, said the same thing. And there are really two different theories of the case here. There are Republicans at the RNC, and certainly Trump himself, who believes that the lie - or their belief that the election was stolen is a motivator. It's what will get people to turn out to, quote, "avenge the steal." It's what gets people to give money to the Republican candidates.

Then there are people like Mike Rounds, who, as you heard him say, say, if we tell our people don't vote because there was cheating, then we're going to put ourselves at a huge disadvantage. That's what some Republicans think happened in the Georgia runoffs in 2021, where Republicans said, why should I bother voting if the whole thing is rigged? And that's an internal debate. Right now, I think it's been solved, at least for the purposes of the primaries. Donald Trump is going to inject himself into primaries on behalf of people who repeat this lie.

INSKEEP: Mara Liasson, thanks so much.

LIASSON: Thank you.

(SOUNDBITE OF TRICHOTOMY'S "JUNK") Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.

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