Former Georgia Lt. Gov. says Trump's 4th indictment is a 'pivot point' for the GOP

Transcript

LEILA FADEL, HOST:

Donald Trump and 18 others charged with taking part in a racketeering scheme to overturn his 2020 election loss in Georgia now have fewer than 10 days to voluntarily surrender to authorities in Fulton County. And unlike the former president's arraignments in other cases, this could be televised. Among those who testified before the grand jury that issued this latest indictment against Trump is former Georgia Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan, a fellow Republican, and he joins us this morning. Good morning. Thanks for being on the program.

GEOFF DUNCAN: Thank you for the opportunity.

FADEL: Now, you've said this indictment is, quote, "poised to land with a louder thud" than the others. What is it about this case that makes it maybe more significant?

DUNCAN: Yeah. What we watched play out right after the 2020 election cycle here in Georgia was just this series of what felt like at the time very coordinated events of just a misinformation game. It was crazy ideas that would start, and then they would try to find, you know, slight little issues out in the field, out across the state to amplify with social media and just really change the sentiment of not only Georgians, but really the country to just hoodwink Republicans that somehow, some way, everybody was corrupt in Georgia, that - you know, around the election system. And it was wrong. And it's taken us 2 1/2 years to get to this point, unfortunately.

FADEL: But where it hasn't seemed to resonate is among Trump's base. Now, you're one of very few Republicans willing to call Trump's lies about the election lies. Trump continues to hold a very strong grip on the Republican Party, despite being charged with all these felonies. In fact, his popularity seems to go up with each indictment. Why does he continue to have such popularity even as he racks up felony charges?

DUNCAN: Yeah. Donald Trump has confused Republicans across the country to think that the louder and more angry you are, the more conservative you are. And that couldn't be any more accurate. I'm a Republican because I believe in the conservative principles of smaller government and public safety and national security. I believe in states rights. Those are the core tenets why a majority of Republicans got into the Republican Party. But Donald Trump's confused us.

And this is a painful healing process for us. I do sense there is a changing of the tide starting to come through. And this is our opportunity. If we as Republicans don't use this moment of insanity inside our party as a pivot point, then shame on us. We should be able to use this as a pivot point.

And to be honest with you, I think this is our time for all of the other candidates not named Trump running for president to come out and boldly state that not only is he wrong, not only has he lied to us, but it's time for him to get out of the race. I think U.S. senators, conservative governors, state legislatures, everybody that has a voice and a platform should speak up as a Republican and tell Donald Trump to get out of this race because it's not good for the party. But more importantly, it's not good for this country.

FADEL: But they're not doing that. I mean, in - right now, that's not what's happening. So what's the future...

DUNCAN: Well...

FADEL: ...Of the party?

DUNCAN: Yeah. I do think it is starting to happen. But there is...

FADEL: OK. Where do you see it happening?

DUNCAN: ...Several candidates that are starting to speak up. And it does feel like we're down to the wire here in this primary process. But the reality is we do have some time. And I think if you look at the polling, a majority - a slim majority - of Republicans actually don't want Donald Trump to be the nominee. But because of the primary process, there's certainly enough Republicans now that could short-circuit that system and get him in there to be our nominee.

But quite honestly, it would be the biggest mistake our party's ever made, is to lift him up as the nominee, for two reasons - one, because I do believe he would be beat by the other the other party. But secondly, even if he was to somehow figure out a way to be a president again, it would be a disaster for this country and, I would argue, a disaster for the world for somebody that is this small-minded to have that much control.

FADEL: Now, you testified before the grand jury on Monday, hours before the indictment was made public. And before you did that, Trump called you a, quote, "nasty disaster" on his Truth Social account and said you, quote, "shouldn't testify." Some pointed to that as witness tampering or intimidation. Do you think that's what he was doing?

DUNCAN: Well, it certainly didn't deter me from answering the questions of the grand jury, getting there on time and fulfilling my civic duties in front of the grand jury. And look, this has been a long, painful process for us in Georgia. As I watched those indictments come out that evening, there really was no names that surprised me. There was no scenarios that surprised me. We knew this was going on behind the scenes at real time here in Georgia.

But like I said, this is an opportunity, and we have to take advantage of this, as Republicans, as the opportunity to just clear the air, to put the facts on the table. If Donald Trump and his cohorts didn't do anything wrong, then they all - they're going to have plenty of airtime to be able to prove that. My guess is they're not going to be able to prove that all this crazy, chaotic conspiracy theories and gyrations that they made actually were rooted in any sort of facts.

But this is important because we can finally put it out there for Republicans around the country to stop believing Donald Trump and his long list of lies and start believing in the party again. If we make the 2024 election about the issues, I believe Republicans will have an incredible opportunity, maybe the best opportunity in 100 years, to win the White House - if we make it about the issues, if we make it about the border and the economy and national security and public safety. I think those are issues that a majority of Americans will sigh (ph) with us instead of Joe Biden and the Democrats.

FADEL: Do you want this case in Georgia and the arraignment - do you want it to be televised? Do you think that would be good for the country and for the public to see?

DUNCAN: Yeah. Personal opinion? Yeah, I do. I think the more Americans can see, and specifically Republicans - the more Republicans can see of the erratic, just crazy series of events that played out, the more they can see it in three dimension, I think the quicker we're going to start to heal as a party and move past Donald Trump. I just - I think history's going to prove that Donald Trump was one of the biggest mistakes this country's ever made.

FADEL: Georgia's former lieutenant governor, Geoff Duncan, thank you for talking with us and taking the time.

DUNCAN: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.