SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
Earlier this week, President Trump said the war with Iran will end, quote, "very soon." After that, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth reiterated that President Trump will decide when the mission is accomplished. But the administration has never been clear on what the mission exactly is, what the main objectives are and how this all ends.
Here's what we do know. More than 1,000 people have been killed in Iran, and according to Iranian officials, hundreds more people have been killed throughout the region. And yesterday, the Pentagon said about 140 American troops have been wounded and at least seven have been killed. For more on how the administration is framing this conflict and how it might be resolved, we called up Jake Sullivan. He worked in the White House during times of global conflict, serving as President Joe Biden's national security adviser. Welcome back to ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.
JAKE SULLIVAN: Thanks for having me.
DETROW: I want to start by getting your response to something that President Trump and his supporters have been saying a lot over the past two weeks. Trump has boasted about bombing Iran, telling Fox News, no other president had the guts to do it. You know, presidents for decades have been trying to curb Iran's nuclear capabilities and weaken the regime. Does President Trump have a point there to you?
SULLIVAN: Well, the single biggest threat from Iran is Iran's nuclear program, and multiple presidents of both parties have said Iran can never get a nuclear weapon. Of course, President Obama and I worked on the Iran nuclear deal, dealt with that problem by putting Iran's nuclear program in a box through diplomacy, through the Iran nuclear deal. And that deal actually stopped Iran from having pathways to get to a nuclear weapon.
It was President Trump who pulled out of that deal, at which point Iran moved its program forward. And so President Trump's decision to bomb Iran to deal with its nuclear program, among other things, is the direct result of him abandoning diplomacy that was working. And so I don't think he has a point because I think he's brought us down the road of a war of choice. And Iran still retains the capabilities, the enriched uranium, the centrifuges, the scientists to present a nuclear threat. And ultimately, he's going to have to go back to diplomacy at some point. He's just made it a whole lot harder.
DETROW: I want to talk about all of these unanswered questions about the war in a moment, but directly, when it comes especially to the nuclear concerns, it does seem like the Iranian military is severely diminished, the Navy, especially. The ayatollah has been killed, of course. Are any of those a step toward what the U.S. wants to see with the nuclear program, or are you concerned that makes things worse?
SULLIVAN: Well, obviously, degrading Iran's military capabilities is not inherently a bad thing, but nothing that has happened since this war kicked off a week ago Saturday has, as far as we know, set back their nuclear program further, and in fact, taking out Ayatollah Khamenei only to have him replaced by his son, also Ayatollah Khamenei, actually may create a dynamic inside Iran where the Iranians conclude that they have to move faster or more aggressively towards a nuclear weapon. So I think there's as good a case to be made that the nuclear threat has increased as it has decreased over the course of the past two weeks.
Now, this story is not over. They could still take further action with respect to the nuclear program. But what we've seen to date, I do not believe has addressed the ongoing challenge of Iran's nuclear program, even as it has reduced their missile stockpile and sunk some ships.
DETROW: Earlier today, President Trump told Axios, anytime I want it to end, it will end. I think you are somebody who has a lot of first hand experience with, at times, the limits of presidential power. So I was wondering what you made of this framing, that this is entirely in control of the White House of President Trump.
SULLIVAN: Well, I do believe that if President Trump decides to end the war, that he can get Prime Minister Netanyahu to end alongside him on the U.S. side. But it is an open question as to whether Iran will simply cease firing if the United States stops. There's a possibility, but that would require some form of diplomatic communication with the Iranian side, perhaps through Oman or the Gulf state of Qatar. But there's also a possibility that Iran will decide to continue firing, and they get a vote in this. So it is not entirely clear to me that President Trump can dictate the pace and timing of the end of this war, even if he believes that he can. And that very much remains to be seen because that partly depends on decisions coming out of Tehran.
DETROW: If you were still in the situation right - room right now, what would your top concern be when it comes to Iran's capacities to strike back? Is it strikes against oil tankers? Is it regional missiles in the Middle East? Is it any sort of attack within the U.S.? Like, what would you be most worried about?
SULLIVAN: I think my foremost concern would be what is affecting most directly the American people, and that's the price at the pump. And as long as the Strait of Hormuz remains closed to much of the oil traffic, the price of oil is going to remain elevated, and the price of gas is going to go up for working Americans. And the Trump administration should have seen that coming when they launched this war and don't appear to have a plan to deal with it at this point. General Caine said yesterday that, you know, he could try to work on a plan, but to date, the U.S. has no solution to that.
I do also worry about the possibility of terrorist attacks that Iran would sponsor, whether directly in the homeland or against American interest across the region. And then there's always the chance that Iran gets off a shot that actually does kill a larger number of Americans, whether it's service members or civilians in the region. So there are a range of concerns that directly affect the lives and livelihoods of Americans that will continue to remain very elevated as long as the conflict goes on.
DETROW: You said that you thought the Netanyahu government would follow suit if the Trump White House said that's it for the strikes. What's your confidence in that, I mean, given how much Netanyahu has pushed back against both President Trump and President Biden when it comes to reining in Israeli strikes?
SULLIVAN: I think specifically when it comes to Iran, we saw last year at the end of the Twelve-Day War, when President Trump determined that that war had run its course, the Israeli government, Prime Minister Netanyahu, agreed to turn Israeli planes around. And that's partly because Israel does rely to a certain extent on enablement and capabilities from the U.S. but also partly because at the end of the day, Israel continuing a war against Iran against - fully against the wishes of the United States, I think, is less likely. That was also our experience back in 2024 with respect to Prime Minister Netanyahu's decisions when it came to striking Iran.
DETROW: We got about 30 seconds left, and this is a hard question for 30 seconds left. But as you have seen this conflict escalate and escalate and escalate, is there anything that you wish the Biden administration had done differently when it came to pressuring the Israeli military and what steps it was taking?
SULLIVAN: Look, I think that this was a war of choice by President Trump, which he chose at a time and place of his own choosing. And I don't think there's anything that President Biden could have done to shape President Trump's decision to put - plunge the United States into a war with no clear objectives and no clear endgame. That's on President Trump, not on anyone else.
DETROW: That's Jake Sullivan. He served as national security adviser during the Biden administration. You can hear his new podcast, "Long Game." Thanks so much for talking to us.
SULLIVAN: Thanks for having me.
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