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Martin O'Malley, former governor of Maryland, says he'll decide by late May whether he's running for president. Running would put him — even he seems to acknowledge — in an uphill battle against Hillary Clinton, currently the only Democrat who has declared.

O'Malley is positioning himself to Clinton's left, and even President Obama's left.

He's for a much higher minimum wage, and against a major trade deal — the Trans-Pacific Partnership. In an interview with NPR's Steve Inskeep, O'Malley also said he wants to increase Social Security benefits, even though some people would pay more taxes.

Surveys put O'Malley far behind Clinton. But, he's hoping his travels across the country can change that. Last month, he addressed a crowd in Iowa while standing on a chair. Last week, he gave a speech at Harvard. And this week, he's in the early primary state of South Carolina.

"I've been an executive and a progressive executive with a record of accomplishments," the former Baltimore mayor said of the difference between him and Clinton. "I think contrasts will become apparent."

(A full transcript of the discussion is available here.)


Interview Highlights

On Republicans' and Democrats' competing economic theories

I think what's going on right now, Steve, is you have a competition between two theories of how our economy actually works and how we generate economic growth that lifts us all. The Republican Party is doubling down on this trickle-down theory that says thou shalt concentrate wealth at the very top of our society. Thou shalt remove regulation from wherever you find it, even on Wall Street. And thou shalt keep wages low for American workers so that we can be more competitive. We have a different theory. Our theory as Democrats and as the longer arc of our story as Americans is that we believe that a stronger middle class is actually the cause of economic growth. What ails our economy right now is 12 years of stagnant or declining wages, and we need to fix this.

On Republican candidates' focus on economic opportunity

I mean, look, talk is cheap. And so there are two ways to go forward from here, and history shows this. One path is a sensible rebalancing that calls us back to our tried and true success story as the land of opportunity. The other is pitchforks.

There's, history affords no other paths. We're either going to sensibly rebalance and do the things that allow our middle class to grow, that expands opportunities and allows workers to earn more when they're working harder. Or, we're going to go down a very, very bad path.

On whether large corporations are able to deal with regulation better than small businesses

Oh, certainly. I mean, our tax code's been turned into Swiss cheese. And certainly the concentrated wealth and accumulated power and the systematic deregulation of Wall Street has led to this situation where the economy isn't working for most of us. All of that is true. But it is not true that regulation holds poor people down or regulation keeps middle class from advancing. That's kind of patently bulls- - -.

On the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal

Yeah, I do oppose it. What's wrong with it is first and foremost that we're not allowed to read it before our representatives vote on it. What's wrong with it is that right now what we should be doing are things that make our economy stronger here at home. And it's my concern that the Trans-Pacific Partnership, this deal is a race to the bottom, a chasing of lower wages abroad, and I believe that that does nothing to help us build a stronger economy here at home.

Copyright 2015 NPR. To see more, visit http://www.npr.org/.

Transcript

RENEE MONTAGNE, HOST:

Hillary Clinton is currently the only major candidate running for president as a Democrat. Today, we're meeting a Democrat who's close to running. He's former Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Two weeks ago, O'Malley addressed a crowd in Iowa while standing on a chair. Last week, O'Malley gave a speech at Harvard. The next day, he met us in a Washington conference room.

O'MALLEY: Nice to meet you.

INSKEEP: Thanks for taking the time.

He wore a white shirt, sleeves rolled up, cup of coffee in hand.

O'MALLEY: (Singing).

INSKEEP: And he sang a note or two, as you'd expect from a former Baltimore mayor who often played guitar and sang in Irish pubs. Surveys put O'Malley very far behind Clinton, but he is trying to claim the space left open by Elizabeth Warren and other Democrats who've said they will not run. He's positioning himself to Clinton's left, in fact, even to President Obama's left. He is for a much higher minimum wage and against a major trade deal. Never mind the talk of cutting Social Security, O'Malley wants to increase Social Security benefits even though some people would pay more taxes.

O'MALLEY: The Republican Party is doubling down on this trickle-down theory that says thou shalt concentrate wealth at the very top of our society. Thou shalt remove regulation from wherever you find it, even on Wall Street. And thou shalt keep wages low for American workers so that we can be more competitive.

We have a different theory. Our theory as Democrats and the longer arc of our story as Americans is that we believe that a stronger middle class is actually the cause of economic growth. What ails our economy right now is 12 years of stagnant or declining wages, and we need to fix this.

INSKEEP: It's interesting that you bring up what Republicans are saying right now because Republicans are in a moment of trying to adjust what they stand for and how they talk about it.

O'MALLEY: I'll bet (laughter).

INSKEEP: You're laughing here, but...

O'MALLEY: Well, I'm laughing because it was their policies that led to this concentration of wealth and an economy that's no longer working for us.

INSKEEP: What a number of Republican candidates are talking about is economic opportunity, emphasizing finding ways that the government can actually be helpful to people on the bottom of the economic scale. What are they missing?

O'MALLEY: They're missing the actions that actually allow you to do that. I haven't heard one of them - maybe there is one, but I haven't heard one - say that they're in favor of raising the minimum wage. Have you?

INSKEEP: They're not.

O'MALLEY: OK. Well, there you go (laughter). I mean, look, talk is cheap. And so there are two ways to go forward from here, and history shows this. One path is a sensible rebalancing that calls us back to our tried-and-true success story as the land of opportunity. The other is pitchforks. We're either going to sensibly rebalance and do the things that allow our middle class to grow, or we're going to go down a very, very bad path.

INSKEEP: I think Republicans have talked more along the lines of education - making it easier to get an education, making it easier to get ahead if you've a lot of experience in life but you don't have a good formal education, things like that.

O'MALLEY: Yeah. They talk about that sometimes, but let's look at what they really do. I mean, you look at the college debt right now that could be solved if Congress would pass a bill. I mean, right now for kids coming out of college to be paying 7 percent interest at a time when interest rates have never been lower is outrageous, and Congress can fix that.

INSKEEP: We spoke with Marco Rubio on the day that he announced his candidacy, Republican of Florida. And he said an interesting thing that a number of other Republicans have said. He argues that an active government actually keeps people frozen at their economic status because if you are well off, if you can afford a lawyer, if you can deal with regulations, you can maneuver through government and stay prosperous. And if you are not so well off, it's harder to work the system. Is there some truth to that? You were a big city mayor, you know how government works.

O'MALLEY: No, I don't think there's any truth to that.

INSKEEP: Not any truth to that?

O'MALLEY: No, I don't think there's any truth to that.

INSKEEP: Isn't it true that corporations - large corporations for example - are able to deal with regulations in a way that small businesses might struggle with?

O'MALLEY: Oh, certainly. I mean, our tax code's been turned into Swiss cheese. And certainly the concentrated wealth and the accumulated power and the systematic deregulation of Wall Street has led to this situation where the economy isn't working for most of us. All of that is true. But it is not true that regulation holds poor people down or regulation keeps the middle class from advancing. That's kind of patently [expletive].

INSKEEP: That's quite a last word, by the way...

O'MALLEY: (Laughter).

INSKEEP: ...On that subject. Let me ask - I'm just going to leave it right there. Let me ask about another issue on which Democrats seem to be divided. You have said in recent days that you oppose the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership, a trade deal that would tie a dozen nations, including the United States, into free trade. What's wrong with that?

O'MALLEY: Yeah, I do oppose it. What's wrong with it is first and foremost that we're not allowed to read it before representatives vote on it. What's wrong with it is that right now what we should be doing are things that make our economy stronger here at home. And that's my concern, that the Trans-Pacific Partnership, this deal, is a race to the bottom, a chasing of lower wages abroad. And I believe that that does nothing to help us build a stronger economy here at home.

INSKEEP: We should mention that you're opposing something that President Obama is negotiating and supports.

O'MALLEY: That's right.

INSKEEP: The administration has described a strategic purpose to this particular trade pact. It involves Japan and other nations that are near China that feel in some way threatened by China, and the United States sees an interest in knitting them together and tightening their ties to the United States. Isn't there something to be said for that?

O'MALLEY: Yeah, I've heard that argument as well. And I've heard also the talking line - the speaking point, rather - that we need to write these trade rules otherwise the Chinese will, which is kind of a juvenile way to look at the world. I mean, the Chinese are going to do what they are going to do in their best national interest, and so, too, should we. And so we should enter into trade deals that actually protect workers, that actually protect our environment and that allow us to trade with like-minded people in larger markets around the world. And we shouldn't be lowering our standards and hurting our economy in the interest of some amorphous or elusive goal.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

INSKEEP: That's former Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley, a Democrat who says he will decide by late May if he's running for president. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.

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